Home Forums The Gaming Room I know it's Sigmar, but…

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  • #17546
    SoulsorcererSoulsorcerer
    Participant

    The major complaint I have about 40K/AOS is the you go – I go. In my experience the least fun of all. Way to many games are over after the 1. Turn without the second player ever doing something. The fluff is great…the minis are super sweet (but heroes are much to expensive!) but the rules don´t resemble anything that is remotely balanced. So if you like the hobby aspect like building and painting and do not care so much about the actual game…GW is (costly) heaven…otherwise play something else 🙂

    #17547
    AvatarUniversal Head
    Keymaster

    And – your example is based on rolling multiple 3 rolls on 2D6; the chances of doing so are pretty slim, surely? And coming up short on charge rolls is a pretty common mechanic.

    Not that I’m saying it isn’t a very dice-dependent system, it is. And I was surprised they didn’t take the opportunity to finally make the game alternate activation, but I suppose the fanbase uproar would have been too deafening if that had happened!

    #17548
    UthorocUthoroc
    Moderator

    Well, it would have been the same if I had rolled two 5s – a much more common occurrence. But let’s just say it’s too many dice and too much randomness for me, tastes may differ. 🙂

    #17549
    Avatar8th
    Participant

    The really odd thing about charge is that you don’t move if you fail, rather than moving anyway, but not getting into combat.

    It’s like….

    Unit leader, “Charge lads!”

    (Rolls dice and fails roll high enough….)

    Unit “run all that way… Sod that mate… Too far” (unit doesn’t move).

    As opposed to…

    Unit leader, “Charge lads!”

    (Rolls dice and fails roll high enough….)

    Unit runs “Bloody hell boss…. Further than it looked… I’m knackered” (unit fatigued and takes penalty to combat)

    I don’t disagree about the bucket of dice though, and the attack, wound, save takes time, but so does Warmachine with its rolling for each troop in the unit.

    As for alternate army and alternate unit play… which games have alternate unit mechanic and have the massive support of Warhammer or Warmachine? Like it or not, the mechanic of alternate army is popular.

    #17600
    Avatar8th
    Participant

    Had an email today… Soul Wars, Malign Sorcery, Shattered Dominion Objectives and a few other bits and pieces are due for delivery tomorrow.

    Lots of snap-fit in my future followed by a lot of painting.

    #17604
    AvatarUniversal Head
    Keymaster

    Unfortunately mine won’t arrive in time for the weekend, but in the meantime I’ll get some other painting projects out of the way.

    #17608
    WonderSlugWonderSlug
    Participant

    [TLDR version. Warhammer is stupid, but I’m buying it anyway.]

    I’m glad you guys started this post. I too find myself peaking over the fence at AoS, as I’ve semi-recently finally gotten in to 40k. Don’t get my wrong, Infinity is, and always will be my game of choice, but I’ve managed to actually find myself pretty immersed in 40k lately. I’m as surprised as anyone. It really is a stupid, bad game…

    Dice fest, and you go – I go were always so boring to me – (I’m just going to have a running aside about “a reason I like Infinity so much…” 1. Always playing because of Reactive turn 2. Rules that stay true across all the armies).

    The fact that I buy books, though beautifully produced, that are way too frequently errated, or otherwise made immediately obsolete is stupid.

    The fact that a rule in my book will do the same exact thing as a different rule in 10 other books, all with 10 different names is stupid.

    The fact that I have to use a third party app to build my army lists because GW doesn’t have their own living/updated army builder is stupid.

    The fact that if I don’t use the third party app, I’ve got to literally write down on a f*cking sheet of paper what my army is, what weapons each model carries, and find the points for all that stuff among numerous charts in numerous books depending on what units I’m playing is stupid.

    The fact that I can play a game, make no mistakes, but because of the way the point system works, I can lose the game or win it, and have almost zero control over the outcome is unforgivably stupid.

    But for some reason I am really enjoying it…

    One (repeat) ONE friend of mine tried and tried and tried to get me into 40k during 7th edition, and I gave it a fair shot like an adult is supposed to. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it, right? Well, I tried it, and I didn’t like it. Pass.

    Along comes 8th edition, and with it the new Death Guard models. I liked what I saw. He sold me the Death Guard half of the box at a really good discount and so I figured I may as well pick up the 8th edition core book to learn the “new and improved” version of the game. Fast forward a little and I rarely sit down without a Codex or some other lore book near me. I can’t stop reading this stuff. Papa Nurgle all the way buddy!

    And I think that’s key to enjoying this game. Before, when I played 7th edition, I knew nothing about anything. My friend would tell me “this guy is a chaos champion, and he’s got a power sword, and bolt gun, and blah blah blah, I’m bored.” None of it mattered to me, because I didn’t know what a chaos champion was or why I should care. He was just another clunky model that was going to chuck some dice at me.

    There is a reason the first 175 of 281 pages in the core book don’t even touch the rules. It’s all about the lore. You have to know “who your guys are,” because it very much is a dice fest, and while there is some nuanced strategy once you get a few games under your belt, it’s nothing compared to a game like Infinity, where literally every order is potentially game changing. I want to take certain guys who may not really be that good in the game, because I really like the way the model looks, or how they were described in the text, etc. It’s stupid! I know it! But it really does play a part in [at least] my enjoyment of the game. It’s about nerding out over your miniatures, and reading about them, and building your army to be fit for The Long War. It’s about the lore. It’s stupid.

    I played in my first tournament this past weekend, and I’m still trying to decide how I feel about the experience. Unlike Infinity, where after the game you can analyze your plays, and break down what you did well/poorly, etc. and feel comfortable about the outcome, in 40k I never really felt that way. Most of the outcomes, even down to the points individual objective cards awarded, came down entirely to luck. Two of my 3 games were lost because multiple cards I scored that award “d3 points,” I rolled a 1 on…F*cking great, right?? I lost both of those games by a single point. That’s stupid.

    I never really had a moment in any game where I could look across at my opponent and say “that was an excellent move,” or “wow, you walked into that one didn’t you?” The units moved toward each other as you’d expect them to, then dice were rolled until no units were left. Whoever got better dice rolls won. Simple as that. It’s stupid.

    Now, there are some aspects of the rules that help with tactics, and strategy, such as helpful / harmful auras on some units, and the ability to only hit character units under certain conditions, etc. And playing to those aspects, leveraging when certain units are in range of others, or properly placing your units to block other charges is absolutely a thing in the game, but it’s going to take time before you start to think about that stuff. I still suck at it. Your mileage may vary. But it is in there, and it is important if you want to “git gud.”

    I tell this long story to help explain why this game is so stupid, but also why I’m really really enjoying it. It’s still a dice fest, but as dice fests go, at least from my limited experience with 7th edition, it is better. It’s cleaner. It’s easier to get in to. And the reboot to 8th edition came with some sweet new models.

    Which is how I bring this post back around to AoS. They’ve tweaked some things, but for the most part the new version is simply rolling in the past two years of official rulings, house rules made legit, and updates all into a nice new book with a bunch of new background lore and a bunch of sweet new models. This approach worked for me with 40k. I’m hoping it does with AoS.

    I also bought the Storm of Sigmar box set, for my daughters actually. They got bored already, so there goes that idea…

    My gut tells me neither of those armies is for me. Yeah, no range attacks, it’s just “run, run, run, charge, attack attack die.” My least favorite part of 40k is the Fight Phase. I like shooting things. [I play Infinity, a game about shooting things] Much of AoS is the Fight Phase, which is why I’m leaning toward the Sylvaneth army, one of the “shootier” armies in the game. And their models are really cool.

    I’m skipping Soul Wars, and just picking up the Core Rulebook for a read on vacation. I really like what I’ve read so far in 40k, and I’m getting an itch for something in a Fantasy setting. I’ve already got the Sylvaneth book, and it’s been a great read so far. If I like the updated core rules, I’ll buy the “Start Collecting” Sylvaneth box and start rolling. If I don’t like it, I’ve got a nice looking book to add to my game shelf after I’m done with it.

    Anyway…

    Didn’t expect that to go so long. Hope at least one person read it.

    #17609
    AvatarUniversal Head
    Keymaster

    I can’t be sure, but I think you think it’s stupid. 🙂

    OK, I’m buying and playing Age of Sigmar because it’s popular, I want to do some features on it and get some more viewers. So what’s everyone else’s excuse? 😉

    Of course that’s not all. I think there’s room in our collections for stupid games – hell, I’ve got scores of them. This may be a step too far for me with the constant dice rolling, but we’ll see. And you’re right, there’s something about stepping into the ‘new version’ – even though we all know it’ll be just as much a mess as the twenty versions that have come before it!

    I do like those ghosts though.

    Fun read WonderSlug!

    #17610
    Avatar8th
    Participant

    @Wonderslug… War is stupid… so it makes sense that games about it are too…

    Can’t disagree with anything you said really.

    I picked up Forgebane for 40K a few months back and it was because the Necrons looked so cool… Undead Terminators… and those scarab things… not forgetting the leader with his baby scarab.

    Adeptus Mechinicus looked less interesting, but they were more interesting than the boring old space marines… cyber limbs. It wasn’t until I started reading their lore that they became more interesting… cutting off legs so they can march longer… now that is really stupid.

    Dice fest? Well… it says GW on the box, so that is inevitable.

    As for Age of Sigmar… I still think they should be honest and call it ‘Age of Space Marines who time travel to a fantasy world’.

    The Haunt look great… very fragile though… but it was the Endless Spells that lured me in. And the books of course… they do look good.

    And sometimes you don’t want sophisticated… you want stupid and pretty… that’s how rock stars and footballers get models as wives… or is it the money?

    Drifting back to lore… being drawn to that is not stupid… Warmachine and Hordes has some really dull armies… Cygnar is quite tedious and I own it… but their Warcasters are cool. Same with Cryx and Circle which I also own. I even like Khador, despite the fact that they kick my ass most of the time when I play my friend… because I like the russian theme.

    If you want to play in tournaments, then army build is important. But if you play friendly games with a friend… the lore helps you to relate to the army…

    Daughters of Khaine are squishy and their back story makes them out to be psychopaths… but the models are very nice… I’m waiting for a Khaine starter to set me up on that.

    I’d never buy Morathi… not because she’s so expensive… but because I could not do a decent paint job on her model… on something so big… all my mistakes would be visible… however… if I win the lottery… I’ll buy her… after someone did a good paint job 🙂

    #17611
    UthorocUthoroc
    Moderator

    Great post, Wonderslug, thanks for that! Your reasons to love Infinity are the same I am enjoying Runewars so much: Control, meaningful decisions, impact of good and bad play.

    I seem to be the odd one out (here or at the FLS) that never gets grabbed or excited by Warhammer lore and fluff, be it 40k or AoS. Oh well, I’ll keep promoting my pet favorite game and playing it with the few people who I’ve managed to convert. 🙂

    Still looking forward to EoG battle reports for AoS, since it simply looks gorgeous on the table.

    #17612
    Avatar8th
    Participant

    Wow…. That’s a lot of plastic. Gonna keep me busy a while.

    Rules 16 pages please warscrolls. Fluff… Hundreds of pages.

    #17623
    AvatarUniversal Head
    Keymaster

    I spent the weekend building and basing these miniatures, and I’m filming as I go and keeping track of how long the whole process takes.

    It’s a nice set, but I was disappointed by the complete lack of introductory scenarios. I was hoping for a short narrative-driven campaign using the figures in the box. Instead it’s just “here are the point scores, here’s the basic setup, now go kill each other”, which is disappointing considering the attention to detail in every other aspect of the box.

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